Before I continue I'm going to give some warning for those who still haven't read the Harry Potter books. If, like me, you like to be surprised when you read something new - leave now
This post is a follow on from my earlier Harry Potter theory about RAB.
So, let's start with the obvious...
Is Dumbledore really dead?
There are people who seem to think that Dumbledore hasn't died and is actually still alive and kicking. I disagree. Whilst the arguments on sites like DumbledoreIsNotDead.com appear to be based in truth, they could be reversed to explain that yes, he has gone.
There is a book called 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces' - you can read a decent summary here - which explains the hero's journey, also known as a monomyth. Essentially what this is, is a template for heroic adventure; a structure that heroic stories generally follow.
Often in heroic stories the mentor of the lead character dies before the hero has the final confrontation with the ultimate evil. This is seen time and time again, famously in films like Star Wars (Obi Won killed by Vader - "Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"), and the Lord of the Rings (Gandalf dies - resurrected, but the hero doesn't realise this after the quest is complete). There are reasons for this as well. If Dumbledore isn't dead then he will feel compelled to help Harry in the final battle, likewise Harry will feel he has to protect Dumbledore. The death of the mentor is generally the turning point, the catalyst, it turns the reluctant hero into the 'enthusiastic' hero. The death of the mentor is also the signal that the hero has learned everything he needs to, Harry now knows how to defeat Voldemort - he just doesn't realise it.
So he's gone then..?
I don't think so. Is he dead? Oh yes - but we've already seen him once, in a painting, in the headmasters office. We've seen the paintings do some pretty cool things, and Dumbledore's is bound to be special. Harry said he won't be going back to Hogwarts as a student, and I don't think he will, but I can't see the entire book being devoid of the school that has been his home for the last 6 years.
Snape
somebody else had spoken Snapes name, quite softly. "Severus..." The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading. Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way. ... Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. "Severus... Please..."
Before he dies Dumbledore begs Snape to do ... something. Whether he was pleading for his life, or pleading for Snape to kill him, which is another post entirely, Dumbledore knew that death would follow shortly.
Dumbledore - gone but not forgotten...
Dumbledore is clearly one of the most important characters in the entire series, there are a number of things he has said and done that still need to be resolved...
He said my blood would make him stronger... He said the protection my mother left me -- he'd have it too. ...he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face.
For a fleeting instant, Harry though he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes.
There has been speculation on this quote in a number of places, so I figured I'd throw something else into the pot. What if something in Harry was turned into a Horcrux, and now Voldemort has had some of it returned? When Goblet of Fire came out we new nothing about Horcruxes, but there is nothing to say that there hasn't been any references to them in past books. I must admit that I don't think this theory is particularly likely, but Harry has obviously passed something of himself over to Voldemort, and Dumbledore has a pretty good idea (knows?) of what it is.
Maybe the sharing of blood has something to do with this?
"She doesn't love me," said Harry at once. "She doesn't give a damn --"
"But she took you," Dumbledore cut across him. "She may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly, yet still she took you, and in doing so, she sealed the charm I placed upon you. Your mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you.""I still don't --"
"While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort. He shed her blood, but it lives on in you and her sister. Her blood became your refuge. You need return there only once a year, but as long as you can still call it home, there he cannot hurt you. Your aunt knows this. I explained what I had done in the letter I left, with you, on her doorstep. She knows that allowing you houseroom may well have kept you alive for the past fifteen years."
The following quote, from the Order of the Pheonix, means nothing to me, but the moment I read it I knew (erm thought) it had some sort of significance that hasn't been explained yet.
Dumbledore now swooped down upon one of the fragile silver instruments whose function Harry had never known, carried it over to his desk, sat down facing them again, and tapped it gently with the tip of his wand.
The instrument tinkled into life at once with rhythmic clinking noises. Tiny puffs of pale green smoke issued from the miniscule silver tube at the top. Dumbledore watched the smoke closely, his brow furrowed, and after a few seconds, the tiny puffs became a steady stream of smoke that thickened and coiled in the air.... A serpent's head grew out of the end of it, opening its mouth wide. (...)
"Naturally, naturally," murmured Dumbledore apparently to himself, still observing the stream of smoke without the slightest sign of surprise. "But in essence divided?"
Harry could make neither head nor tail of this question. The smoke serpent, however, split itself instantly into two snakes, both coiling and undulating in the dark air. With a look of grim satisfaction Dumbledore gave the instrument another gentle tap with his wand.
Further reading
- Details about Dumbledore at the Harry Potter Lexicon
- Quotes by and about Albus Dumbledore
- What JK Rowling says about Dumbledore
- What We Know, What We Don't Know, and What We May Be Able to Foresee
Try to keep the comments on topic - Snape is next...p
you're very welcome Nancy! I found that theory very interesting too. I thought it was a good theory, but I find it hard to believe (or maybe it's just because I don't want to believe it lol). The original poster obviously put a lot of thought into it
You're right- Harry couldn't have absorbed the "ring's soul" if we understand correctly
oh wait I just thought of something.. maybe, if that theory is true, then Harry is indeed "becoming" Voldemort with every 1/7 of his soul that he absorbs...but since Dumbledore destroyed the ring, then Harry will only ever ultimately become 6/7 (rather than 7/7) of Voldemort's soul, and that will somehow allow him to kill the real Voldemort....??? It might not make much sense but I just thought I would throw that out there lol
April 23, 2007
Yeah: LOL to the max! Like you, I don't WANT to believe it, but it's fun to PLAY with!
April 23, 2007
Do you guys think it's possible that Harry is "becoming" Voldemort (like we talked about earlier), but maybe at the end of the book he will figure this out (and of course Harry will freak out about it and be terrified of himself), and then overcome it, defeat Voldemort, and find a way to become "Harry, just Harry"?
April 24, 2007
Quote below.....
He said my blood would make him stronger… He said the protection my mother left me — he’d have it too. …he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face.
For a fleeting instant, Harry though he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore’s eyes
Could the look that was on DD face be the face that he knew that harry had been a horcrux and what that implied if VM was to be defeated, harry would have to die.
perhaps as VM not has harry blood, as they now share the same blood, in essence 1 but devided, another quote from DD
now VM can be killed without harry beiing killed through this very fact, as they have the same blood the soul in harry is shared thus the horcux that was created in harry is back in VM
does that make sense!!
April 24, 2007
Adding to Andy's questions, I'm wondering if Lily's protection through Harry's blood means that Voldemort can now breach Dumbledore's security on Number 4 Privet Drive. Perhaps he hasn't been aware of the possibility before now, but it may happen in DH.
Also, does anyone have any ideas about the role that Mark Evans will play in DH? He's mentioned in passing by Harry to Dudley as they walk home in OotP before the Dementors attack them. Evans is Lily's maiden name, and I have to wonder WHY this kid (10 years old in OotP) is being introduced in their conversation. What 'cha think?
April 25, 2007
to Nancy 805-
on JK Rowling's website, in the FAQ -About the books- section, go to page 12/16 and you will see a question that says "What is the significance, if any, of Mark Evans?" and then JK Rowling answers it...she says that his last name being Evans is NOT significant, that he's actually "nobody"..she says he's just background.
lol sorry to squash any ideas anyone had
April 26, 2007
u ruined my day lindsay!!!!!! I spent 3 days researching this but i don't check JK's website often
April 28, 2007
to chris- i'm very sorry!
yeah when Nancy brought that up, I remembered seeing it on JK's website so there it was!
April 28, 2007
I've actually never been on her site, but I still wonder... She doesn't seem to do things by accident, and I guess I'll believe it if Mark Evans DOESN'T actually show up or do anything in DH, but until then, I'll keep the possibility open! I mean, the Evans name is a little TOO coincidental, if you get my drift, but I appreciate the info anyway, Lindsay!
April 28, 2007
if jk answers a question she must have to answer it honestly or nt answer it at all i don't think she would lie about the whole mark evans thing!!
May 1, 2007
I think either Regulas Black is R.A.B. or the other guy who worked at Borgish and Botts because Lord Voldemort used to work there and i think he killed the other guy. Also, i think Dumbledore is really dead but the picture in his office has another picture in Harry's bedroom. I also think Malfoy will be the 1 to kill Snape and Malfoy will be a good guy. The 2 peeps to die i think will be Harry and Voldemort.
May 2, 2007
Minutes before Dumbledore dies when he is trying to turn Draco. Draco says he has no choice, Voldermort will kill him if he doesn't kill Dumbledore. Then Dumbledore says "He cannot kill you if your already dead" this leads me to belive that if Draco had turned at that point then Snape would have pretended to kill Dumbledore and Draco together, and that Dumbledore is not dead he simply wants Voldermort to think he is so he will stop trying to kill him.
May 3, 2007
doesn't anybody know that rowling said she is going to kill 2 loved ones in the 7th book. personally i think it'll be harry and ron
May 6, 2007
I think that Harry, Ron and Hermione are in Gringott's bank in the 7th book (Uk Children's edition) on the front cover.
May 6, 2007
Erik, i say dumbledore is dead. he would try to get draco to say something like he accepts dumbledore's offer and he can act like he killed malfoy but he wanted it before any death eaters would come. u notice at the beginning of the 6th book molfoy's mom goes to snape for him to protect her son. i think the most reasonable conclusion is that snape is a death eater
May 6, 2007
J.K has said that ginny is a very powerful witch, i was just going round her website and found out that ginny is th e firswt girl too be born in the wasly family for several generations as we all know 7 is a very powerful number and thus lies the main source of her power
May 6, 2007
ltd i agree highly with yuor theory. I've heard of the seventh son of a seventh son is powerful and gifted in some way. I presume seventh daughter of the seventh daughter is the same
May 9, 2007
yar aswell as being the 1st girl in seven generations of weasly's she aslo the 7th child of mr and mrs weasly
May 9, 2007
itd i think your theory isnt highly reasonable. what if rowling didnt mean for her to be the 7th child and girl. hoewever i do see more sense in your theory than in mine
May 10, 2007
1. dumbledore is dead
2. he will not come back as a ghost, "to the well organized mind death is but the next great adventure"... dumbledore has no fear of death
3. i agree that harry will be talking to the portrait of dumbledore... but that means he'll have to be traveling to hogwarts to do it, since he wont be in school in the seventh book.
4. what is the deal with us not knowing what lily and james did for a living yet... i've been wondering since i read the first book how they got all the gold, and the question still hasn't been answered... is no one else curious about this?
5. snape.... snape snape snape.... that dude has some issues, i think it could go either way.... i like to think he is not a death eater, but Dumbledore did say that since he is more cleaver than other wizards he tends to make much bigger mistakes.... so maybe snape is a death eater.... but i think it would be cool if sometime in the final battle harry finds himself in a position where he has to trust snape in order to defeat voldermort.... and ofcourse harry will trust him.... and snape will help him... and then both voldermort and harry will die.... and the rest of the characters will live happily ever after.
May 10, 2007
It seems like most people believe that Dumbledore must have given James' Invisibility Clock to Harry for Christmas, but I've come across something that causes me to disagree with that theory:
The handwriting on the note which accompanies the cloak is described as "narrow, loopy" writing. This is different from the writing on the appointment notes which Dumbledore sends to Harry in HBP-- DD's is described as "thin, slanted" writing. I think "loopy" is a clue, especially when you think about the scene in POA when Peeves annoys Lupin by singing, "Loony loopy Lupin, loony loopy Lupin" before Lupin uses a spell to send the wad of chewing gum up Peeves' nose. In my opinion, Lupin was the one who sent the clock to Harry for Christmas, not Dumbledore.
May 10, 2007
CLOAK! CLOAK! NOT CLOCK!!!!! I can't believe I did that TWICE and I even PROOFREAD it before posting! Gotta get new glasses-- SORRY!!!!!
May 10, 2007
nancy i like your idea, its very well pointed out but i think this is just an error by j.k as she has to keep track of every book but..... then again she's full of surprises
May 12, 2007
to nancy 821: I agree, it could be Lupin! I actually don't remember it being STATED anywhere that it was in fact Dumbledore who gave Harry the cloak
May 12, 2007
i dont understand that because volde drank unicorn blood IS HIS LIFE STILL cursed because it was ACTUALLY quirrel that drank the blood but surly e should still have a cursed life
also i re read PS and and the end it does not state whsat happend 2 quirrellit states that voldemort left his body and dumbledore got their just in time but dd dumble dore kill him????
May 12, 2007
loopy is a synonym for loony
May 12, 2007
which is a synonym for crazy
May 12, 2007
to 825: I don't remember where it is stated but Quirrel is dead- I think it might have happened when Harry "defeated" Voldemort/Quirrel at the end of book 1.
May 12, 2007
yeah mikedagr8, you're right- but this is one of those "running bits" so they call it-- Lupin is called "loopy" and the writing is described as "loopy"-- I know they are not meaning the same thing in the separate contexts, but it's still the same word.. I think that's all Nancy was trying to say. JKR drops small hints like that and it could be related
May 12, 2007
Exactly, Lindsay! Not to mention, Mikedagr8: Peeves sounds pretty redundant! (Unnecessarily repetitious...)
May 12, 2007
i think this idea is good, but i also think that they may have figured it out when they had lupin as a teacher, because they would have seen his hand writing on corrected homework right... but maybe the two things were two far apart, so they didnt catch it. but, you would think that if lupin did send it to him that he would have told harry that by now.
and no one commented on my earlier question... what the heck did harry's parents do to make their money? this has been bothering me since the first book!
May 12, 2007
In cs when harry and ron have taken the polyjuice potion and are talking to malfoy. he lets on that they (the malfoys)have a secret chamber under their drawing room. ron says tha he is going to tell his dad about it but this secret chamber is never mentioned again. can anyone help me on yhat.
May 13, 2007
i just had a very random thought ... Does anybody else realise how Fawkes acted oddely, like the in chamber of secrets, and other times.
Is it possible that Dumbledore also has a horcrux, in the form of the pheonix? It is doubtful that Dumbledore has killed, but is it possible? Dumbledore may have killed a death eater maybe?
I believe that Dumbledore's picture will play a part in the next book, i mean, Philias Nigelus or however you spell it, is very lively.
In the book they say there is 4 more horcrux's, But what about Quirrel? There must have been some part of Voldemort in Quirrel?
3 left
May 14, 2007
to Kyle #833-- The bit of Voldemort's soul that was in Quirrell is the SAME bit that is now in Voldemort's regenerated body. That's the bit he's KEEPING from dying through the existence of the Horcruxes. Until the Horcruxes are all destroyed, that particular bit of Voldemort will continue to survive, no matter how many bodies it inhabits (whether Voldemort's own or somebody else's), even when the bodies get killed. Quirrell wasn't a Horcrux; he was a "host" and Voldemort's soul was the "parasite" dwelling inside!
May 14, 2007
can voldemort possess people at will like he did to ginny? Is the way he possess the same as demons in the tv show supernatural?
May 19, 2007
dumbledore always seems 2 know everything thats going on at hogwarts but doesnt stop some of them i just dont no why e doesnt do it when the chamber of secrets was opened he new it was jinny from the very start he just wanted to no how she did it he could of preented people being petrified i think he myt have been trying to prepare harry for his future battles any suggestions?
May 19, 2007
DD does that in the first book too. He knows that harry will go into get the stone and he has a lot of faith in him
May 19, 2007
people keep on talking about that invisibiliy cloak and i thought dumbldore said at the end of that book that he gave harry the cloak, or something like that that gave it away that it was dumbledore.
May 26, 2007
i think it was dumbledore cus e said 2 him at the mirror of erised that e doesnt need a cloak 2 make himself invisible u jst get the feeling e gave it 2 harry so that he could go snooping around the castle then find the mirror then finally try n protect the philosophers stone
May 26, 2007
Just putting a theory out there. I believe that Voldermort has made his soul a Horcrux. If we agree that Voldermort made Harry a horcrux when he killed Harry's parents then Voldermort may have put his own Horcrux in his own soul from using Harry's blood. This would explain why Dumbledore has a glint of triumph in his eye when Harry tells him V used his blood as it would mean Harry wouldn't have to kill himself to destroy V, rather someone needs to kill V.
May 27, 2007
The horcruxs:
1) Original piece of soul harry killed as a baby.
2) The diary (chamber of secrets).
3) The ring
4) The locket
5) ???
6) ???
7) Voldermorts remaining piece of soul in his body.
May 27, 2007
I have heard some really strange theories. One is that Snape was actually in love with lilly and has a personal vendetta against Lord Voldermort.
I have also heard a theory that when Ginny was in the Chamber of Secrets she herself was made into a horcrux. Ginny and Harry have got together now and for Harry to sacrifice her would be an ultimate sacrifice.
May 27, 2007
5=hufflepuffs cup
6=nagini
May 28, 2007
Do you think there will be any thing from Ravenclaw or Griffindor in the form of a horocrux?
May 31, 2007
i doubt griffindor because there was nothing voldemort could get hold off possibly ravenclaw
June 1, 2007
some of you people are in denial... dumbledore is dead! although i think he probably has killed in the past, but he wouldn't make a horcrux. it's not natural. and in terms of the classic literary pattern dumbledore has to be dead because the hero has to lose his mentor before the final battle.
June 1, 2007
^ i agree with you andrew, i believe dumbledore is dead, although i think he has helped Harry to become strong enough to (hopefully) defeat Voldemort
June 4, 2007
I tried to read all the way through, and didn't see this thought, so maybe I missed it, or maybe no-one else posted it. Is DD really dead? I direct your attention back to book one - didn't snape say that an expert potions maker can even put a stopper in death?
June 4, 2007
snape meant that an expert potion maker can brew a poisen that would kill someone, and put it in a bottle and put a STOPPER in it... to close the bottle... the stopper is just the cork...
June 5, 2007
I diagree! I belive the stoper on death may be revering to the elistiour of life (PHILOSIPHERS STONE)
June 6, 2007
i have a question it may have been talked about in the posts but im not going to read all of them lol but what of harrys grandparents on his dads side. since his dad was a pureblood. i have been to many web pages and tired to look up on it and have found nothing. if someone could tell me something about them. it says in GoF that Sirius was always welcome at Mr. and Mrs. Potters house for lunch. but thats all i have found out about his grandparents
June 11, 2007
Thats all I have heard about his Grandparents aswell. I think we may find some information out about them in Book 7! HOPE SO!!! what do you think???
June 12, 2007
i just thought of something else, in half blood prince harry is leaving dumbledore's office and looks at the table where the ring used to be and harry says "the ring is gone... but i thought perhaps... the mouth organ"... and i know the mouth organ isn't a horcrux but my question is what happened to the ring?
June 13, 2007
and i also wonder about the grandparents... i just assume that whole side of the family is dead... but how did they die... i hope JK tells us... i also wonder where lily's parents are... or if they are dead too, because aunt petunia says that her sister lily was thought to be so special by her parents... so wouldn't those grandparents, if they are alive, think that harry was very special too.
June 13, 2007
Andrew, re 820...If you understand that Dumbledore cannot be a ghost because you understand his comment about death to "the well organized mind," how can you think that Dumbledore was "pleading" to Snape for his life on the tower. Would that make sense? I think not! What WOULD a Dumbledore plead for? and what would be so difficult or "repulsive" to Snape that Dumbledore would think pleading was in order to get him to do it?
Are you there yet?
(and...do you really think that the greater mistakes that he would make with his superior mind would be errors which negate the whole theme of the books?) no no you're on track with your final thought in that post. When we find out why Snape is so loyal to Dumbledore...what his regret and remorse is truly about, Kleenex will clean up!
June 15, 2007
Whoever wrote about one of the horcruxes being destroyrf when Harry repelled LVs Avada Kedavra curse,, wow id not thought bout that though i t hink that if that were true DD wuda guesses and mentioned it to harry.
Dumbledore did tell Harry it was him who had the cloak when he tells him he is going to move the Mirror just to clear theta up.
I dont think Neville will kill voldy cuz the prophesy says Harry has to,, and even DD said the LV had made it so the prophecy would come true. Hopefully Neville will be able to avenge his parents by being the one to face Bellatrix in the 7th book cause he needs to prove himself for his own self-confidence and also for his familys view on him.
I really wanna find out more about Harrys extended family not jst for the importance to the story but to satisfy my own curiosity...
Oh and there is a lot of things suggesting that Harrys a horcrux though i dont think that him seeing Mr Weasley being attacked from the snakes point of view is one of them... he saw it from the snakes view because he was seeing what LV was seeing... and LV was controlling the snake that is why DD says "naturally"
June 17, 2007
leah re to 855, i don't think i have said that dumbledore was pleading for his life... i think there was a lot more going on there that we don't know about yet... an act to convince the death eaters that were there that snape was on their side. maybe dumbledore had decided that giving his life was worth it if it meant that snape would have ultimate trust from the death eaters. and now snape will be in the perfect position to help harry in book seven... because i still think snape is good. i think you probably agree that snape isn't a bad guy... i mean if he were evil why wouldn't he just let the other death eaters torture and kill harry.... and why would he be giving harry advice about closing his mind right after he had killed dumbledore at the end of book six. so... do you agree that snape is good?
June 18, 2007
i'm not sure if he is good at the moment but I think he will turn good by the end of book 7. I believe he may have been in love with Lilly Potter and this will convert him to save Harry, Lilly's son.
I cant remember him giving harry advice about closing his mind right after he had killed dumbledore at the end of book six, but I'm about to re-read it.
June 18, 2007
858: Indeed he did, if my memory serves me right, i think he said, "Mind Shut and ..... ", also maybe harry having his mothers eye's is critical in getting snape on his side, maybe he'll see a part of Lilly in him.
June 20, 2007
I like that idea. Every one always says it to Harry and J.K. never says anything that is not needed in the story line.
June 20, 2007
I have posted some more thoughts on the new book and a round up of some of the comments over here. Maybe we could carry on the conversation there?
June 24, 2007
Andrew, no...I didn't say that you said Dumbledore was pleading for his life. The book says that when Dumbledore uttered Snape's name "severus", Harry became frightened because he had never heard Dumbledore pleading before. That is my point. Are we supposed to believe he was pleading for Snape to help him? NEVER!! Of course Snape is good....well, maybe not good, but certainly on the good side...He is Dumbledore's man through and through...Dumble dore has to plead with him TO LET HIM DIE...not to save him. By the way, I don't think Snape actually killed DD. I think he levicorpused the already dying DD over the ramparts and lowered him to the ground(where, then DD dies from the poison or the hand etc.) I think we are on the same page, no?
June 25, 2007
leah, we are pritty much on the same page i'd say... i even have a sticker on the outside of my laptop that says SNAPE IS GOOD.
but i don't know if it's as complicated as snape not killing dumbledore... and just lowering him over the edge of the tower. i think he did kill him, but i think snape and dumbledore had planned it, and that dumbledore had told snape that snape had to avada kadavra him. so to me the question isn't "did snape kill dumbledore" but instead, why did dumbledore want snape to kill him... what do ya think?
June 26, 2007
Andrew,
My laptop's desktop is a picture of Einstein having written "E=MC^2" and "Snape is good" on a blackboard.
Here's why I think the complicated levicorpus is necessary. If Snape is good and killed Dumbledore on Dumble's orders, Avada Kedavra would not have worked. Remember when Bellatrix explained to Harry that not even righteous indignation could pull off an unforgivable curse. She said something like the castor of the spell really has to want to torture or to murder. If JKR has told us this through Bellatrix, than how can one use Avada Kedavra to muder if they are not filled with murderous rage and joy at the prospect of the kill? I think thats why she spent so much time telling us about levicorpus with its nonverbal accessibility and its jet of green light. Its there for a reason, and who better than the half-blood prince, himself would know how to use it in such a duplicitous manner?
The why is easy...Dumbledore is dying anyway...Snape needs to maintain Voldemort's trust in him to be able to help defeat him in the end. It is always the real test of the suspected double-agent to kill a good-guy. It assures him continued access to voldemorts trust and his plans. (You'll also find out that Emmeline Vance's murder (was there a body?) will turn out to be a big clue to Snape's real loyalties. I'm guessing that was a staged murder also to prove snape's allegience to the death-eaters. He's not exactly good, but snape's regret is real. (I do think he was in love with Lily) I have ever since the third book.
June 27, 2007
sorry, that's "righteous indignation could NOT pull off an unforgivable curse
June 27, 2007
I have read in so many places that people believe Harry to be a horcrux but in thinking about it, I began to wonder if Dumbledore himself was a horcrux. Dumbledore mentioned to Harry that Voldemort probably used items close to Hogwarts as Horcruxes because Voldemort himself was close to Hogwarts. However Dubledore also mentioned that Godric Gryffindor's sword, an item thought possibly to be a horcrux, was safe because Dumbledore had it. Well if Voldemort couldn't place a horcrux in the sword then maybe he might have done so in Dumbledore. Dumbledore was the very reason why Tom Riddle was informed of Hogwarts. Perhaps Voldemort felt a pull towards Dumbledore. I know Dumbledore was the one person Voldemort was scared of but for some reason it seems that it could make sense.
June 28, 2007
leah, i didn't even think of the green light, that's an interesting idea... but then what about snapes unbreakable vow... he vowed that if malfoy didn't kill dumbledore that he would... but if snape only lowered dumbledore to the ground then he didn't kill him. and that means he broke the vow... and would then die! but who knows, that green light thing is a good point, JK never leaves a clue hanging
June 29, 2007
um the idea about hte green light from the spell that "killed" dumbledore, well if you were able to find textual evidence to support this it would be great, because i do not recall of this, only the AK being green. Sorry i have been unable to post, but i have been away on holidays overseas with limited net connection. Glad to be back
June 29, 2007
Andrew and mikedagr8,
I can't find my copy of HBP right now (so correct me if I've got any of the following wrong), but, I beleive the following paraphrased citations give the evidence you're asking for.
-In the unbreakable vow, the words "murder dumbledore" are not used. The part of the vow which referredspecifically to Draco's job of offing DD, was worded more to the effect that he was vowing to accomplish Draco's task for him. The task was to render Dumbledore dead. Snape's not attempting to save him (even if it were impossible to do so) might meet the terms of that vow.. Second of all, we do not know how being an occlumens might affect the unbreakable vow. Perhaps an excellent occlumens can wall off a piece of his mind the way some people can get around a polygraph.
-The description of the jet of green light can be found when Harry experiments with casting levicorpus nonverbally on a sleeping Ron. In that scene, we get both, that levicorpus can be accomplished non-verbally and that it is accompanied by a jet of green light. Trust me, no other spell, jinx, hex or curse has been described with green light, except for the AK. Furthermore, given that snape (who is the HBP) is either the creater of that hex (or at least the one who brought it back "into vogue" (as Lupin suggests)), who better than he would be able to pull that off so convincingly?
June 29, 2007
and as long as we're on the subject of cool things to think about, try these:
1 -If Snape is loyal to DD (and I think we all agree, most probably he is), then, what is the meaning of his so-called aid in the murder of emmeline vance? She is either not dead or wasn't murdered and THIS may be the thing that helps Harry or other order members come to believe the truth about snape.
2 - JKR tells us that we should have asked her about why DD had James' cloak...and then she refuted the idea that Snape was under it at Godric's Hollow. She also said that Petunia was not a squib or a witch who refused to do magic, but definately a muggle. However, she added that ther was more to Petunia than meets the eye. It will turn out that James and Lily had asked Dumbledore to get the cloak to Petunia (?so that she could visit them in Godric's Hollow? or do some other thing that she would need to keep secret from vernon). Why is this important? She knows stuff. She will be a surprizing source of necessary info for Harry
3 - Creaky stair mentioned in COS when fred and george go to get harry trunk. Petunia wouldn't let a creaky stair remain so...unless it was a hiding place that she knew about.
I'll leave it at that
June 29, 2007
^ooh I like your thinking, especially in your Point no. 3, leah! That thought had never even occurred to me! Very interesting, Petunia could be hiding magical objects.....
June 29, 2007
yeh, very good point. I don't know how you guys can pick up on little things like this. How many times have you red the books?
June 30, 2007
leah, i agree that we don't know the exact phrasing of what dracos task was, i think it is understood that the ultimate goal was to kill dd, but depending on the phrasing snape could have not killed dd and still gotten off on a technicality. basicallly i can't wait for the next book... i'm just hoping it answers all the hanging questions.
June 30, 2007
In an interview JK said that someone new will develop magical powers late on. Who do you think this is?
June 30, 2007
i dont know if anione mentioned this
butt the tittle for the new book is hp & the deathly HALLOWS. and harys old place where he and his family lived was Godrics HALLOW. so theres ovbiously a connection. Like maybe HP and V will battle there, like end where it all began. But did JKR mention that only either HP or V will die or did she say ANY main character could die.
if soo, then ron or hermoine could die on the way too. i like the thouht of hogwarts being a horcrux because Voldie is quiet smart to put it in a place where he knew could never be destryoed for it has been open for centuries to come now. Since hogwarts was mention about a million times as a 'home' for Voldie. But it'd be hard placing a horcrux upon a place where enchantments were all over, and dumbledore did keep an eye on him when Riddle was in Hogwarts. But im positive abt the Hallows thingy. it only makes sense. && harry did say in HBP that he had a feeling to return back to Godrics Hallow. I didnt believe Dumbledore was dead when i first read it. Since he was the best wizard in history. But mmaybe he died because he knew it was the only way for harry to get to voldie. like voldie knew DD had strong protection over harry. and until DD wasnt gone, the longer it would take for HP to kill V.
July 2, 2007
i've checked all of the names about the Harry Potter books and only one fits with R.A.B., but still it seems to be very easy to connect it to Regulus. I don't know for sure but i think that there will be a surprise about that thing. And for Dumbledore....o no, in my opinion he is dead but SNAPE, come on!!!!!!! i'm waiting so unpatiently for the Book 7 ...:)
July 2, 2007
see... i'm not sure that regulus is dead or RAB anyway... but that notice..he say hat he will be dead but dumbledor and harry survived so he could have survived, too. i think that it is possible and if i'm confused please tell me more about his dead(if there is dead). about tha harry being horcrux- i don't think that voldemort will be wanting to kill him if he is part of him.
July 2, 2007
i like the idea of DARK HARRY. this would be a v. good twist at the end. i think it would be cool if it took a path like the black suit on Spiderman 3 i.e. harry fights LV. and gets a taste for revenge then it starts to control him. it would probably give him more power - voldemort is more powerful than dumbledore because of dark arts (sum people might not agree with that but i think it is true). if he was bad/more powerful it would mean he would have a better chance against LV. he has it in him - LV gave something of himself to Harry when his curse backfired. this is linked to posts around 760-770.
July 2, 2007
^very interesting, I haven't heard of that many people who have that view!
I don't know what I would think about that, I doubt if JK Rowling would let the books end that way. ???
but we don't have that much longer to wait!!!!!
July 3, 2007
well, how would "love" be the power that vanquishes the dark lord if Harry becomes Dark Harry? Sorry...Absurd!
July 3, 2007
#122's last paragrapgh makes alot of sense.
since godrics hallow was owned by godric gryffindor, then the house is somehting that belongs to gryffindor that is what voldie needs! like dumbledore said, somethign form ravenclaw or gryffindor and if the sword was in dumbledores office, then why not godrics house? it would be down in ancient histroy. like my previous post, i mentioned about godrics hallow and the last book being the deathly hallows. well what if voldie wanted to place a horcrux in the house? since it WAS godrics and all? So harry doesnt know anihting that ould belong to gryffindor that voldie would use as a horcrux, so it could be one of the last things, other than voldies bodies itself that harry could find. well tahts just what i think. but if harry and voldie were battling in the house, then the house would need to be destroyed before voldies body, soo..?
July 3, 2007
Its Godrics Hollow, not Hallow.
But your theory could be right.
July 3, 2007
As much as I hate the fact that Snape killed Dumbledore...I still think he's on the good side. Crazy? I know. I can't imagine J.K. faulting Dumbledore so much as to him being this wrong about Snape...I just can't. Here's my small theory (not fully developed): The Horcrux in the cave was no the locket at all...it was the potion. Dumble drank it knowingly...knowing he was drinking a piece of Voldemort. Snape, one of Dumbledore's closest men, know this and knew he had to kill Dumbledore (to destroy the horcrux). Dumbledore's plea...was for death, for Snape to be strong and to do it. That's why Dumbledore froze Harry. He could have easily unfrozen him at anytime silently, but he didn't b/c he knew Harry would try to stop Snape. The only thing that doesn't fit and I hope to get some help with is the description of hatred on Snape's face: "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." Perhaps is was his hatred for Voldermort or for himself for getting him into this mess in the first place. Who knows, but...it's worth trying out!
July 3, 2007
i really don't believe that Harry is a Horcrux. If he was a Horcrux, why would Voldemort be obsessed with killing him?
July 4, 2007
to Alice 883- I completely agree with you!!! Snape, I believe, has always been loyal to Dumbledore and only killed him because he had to, in order to maintain his "loyalty" in Voldemort's eyes.
As for your question about the "revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face"- if you go back to the Horcrux scene, Harry was "hating himself...repulsed by what he was doing" when he had to force Dumbledore to drink the potion. It was something he knew he HAD to do, even though he did not want to. I believe Snape was in a similar situation as Harry had been in.
July 4, 2007
nice idea with the potion being a horcrux, but if you think about it, what is the point of having something in the bottom of the basin then? also i can't recall what happened to the liquid in the basin, was it refilled or what happened, because depending on what happened it may make or break your theory, i believe. Also, do you think big v would have made it so that his soul was in a liquid spread out? because this could have meant that if 2 people drank half, there'd be another split up of the sole, hence creating another horcrux? this sounds like it would work IN favouor of big v, but i am not JKR and i have not read book 7 so i cannot answer, but those sources willl, hopefully.
July 5, 2007
Dumbledore is dead. Rowling has confirmed it. She evn said sorry for ruining the perpose of dumbledoreisnotdead.com.
July 5, 2007
I never said he wasn't dead...rather that his death has more meaning that just Snape being a bad guy and killing him...that seems too easy!
July 5, 2007
godrics holoow was destroyed, apparently by the curse voldemort used- avada kedavra. However, i am not sure that the curse has ever destroyed a building before. this could however be because the curse rebounded upon voldemort. what happened to harry's parents' bodies.
July 6, 2007
in the philosopher's stone, which i am just reading presently again i have noticed something fishy: it seems that dumbledore wants harry to dicover about the philosophers stone. he gives harry an invisibility cloak, hagrid gives him a flute (to play to fluffy), dumbledore allows him to go to the mirror of erised for three nights. furthermore, they go into the forest, and the centaurs know about it (why were the students punished by making them go into the forbidden forest when hagrid (and probably dumbledore) knew that a dark magical creature was killing the unicorns. also hagrid takes harry to the wizards bank to get the stone, knowing that harry would be inquisitive about the grubby little package. also, the door to the third floor corridor was able to be unlocked by a simple spell that first years could accomplish. This seems odd to me.
July 6, 2007
is zacharius smith related to hebzibah smith- hufflepuff connection?
July 6, 2007
maccy, where is ure textual evidence for godrics, because i am very sure, it is never mentioned witht hat description
July 6, 2007
ok 892 or so comments here i read about 300 before i nearly went mad but anyway heres my opinion for what its worth
after harry tells DD that V took his blood he think he sees triumph in DD face i think that by V having harry's blood he has infected himself with the substance he hates the most . love.
this may prove a vital turning point in the book if im right as "the power the dark lord knows not" is love
tell me what you think guys
July 6, 2007
ohhhh nice job pointing that out maccy (891) I had never even noticed that before! wow that's interesting...I really am not a fan of zacharius smith lol but it could be true. Or it could just be one of those "last name slip-ups" of Rowlings, like she did with Mark Evans
July 6, 2007
I have not read all 894 posts, so maybe someone has answered this but can someone help me with this question?
Why does Dumbledore trust Snape? How could you trust some one who heard the most important wizarding prophecy and passed the info on to the worst Wizard, the one person who shouldn’t know the info. Snape was a Half-Blood and was helping some one who wanted to get rid of everyone who was not pure blood.
I do not see how Dumbledore could trust him. Any ideas? I came up with one but I think it is too far out there.
Snape supposedly heard the prophecy and passed it to Voldemort
This makes Snape a death eater
Who is to say he was a death eater before this event
Maybe Dumbledore had Snape become one
Maybe Dumbledore had Snape pass the info
Bc he knew the Child could stop him
Seems like quite a risk though
If the prophecy wasn’t true then he sent Voldemort after the Potter Family
If it was true than he is still sacrificing Lily and James Potter
Unless he knew they would come back but this is all so far stretched
Also around this time of hearing the prophecy and passing the info he gets a job at Hogwarts. How could Dumbledore’s trust in Snape be established so quickly after he passed the prophecy on. It just seems like Dumbledore must’ve know what Snape was doing.
It is claimed that he did not get Defense Against the Dark Arts because he was a death eater and could not be trusted. But this makes no sense since Dumbledore claims to trust him. I think he got the Potions position because the Defense Against the Dark Arts Position is cursed and no teacher lasted more than a year in the position.
Another thing to think about is the fact that Snape finally gets the Defense Against the Dark Arts job when Voldemort has returned and things are at their worst. Why would Dumbledore move him? My initial thought was “Maybe Dumbledore knows Snape won’t be around after this year or that Snape won’t be needed anymore.†Either way I knew that the change in Snape’s subject area signaled that things would change for Snape that year and of course they did.
If Dumbledore and Snape had hatched a plan for Snape to kill him, for whatever reasons, then the men knew Snape would no longer be able to stay at Hogwart’s anyways. A perfect time for him to take the Dark Arts Position.
I do not think that the Unbreakable Vow theory is enough for me. Maybe Dumbledore trust Snape bc he made it, but I just can’t see Dumbledore making such a vow with someone who would do something as evil as giving Voldemort the prophecy and selling out James and Lily. Dumbledore would’ve wanted him in jail. Dumbledore made no plea bargins with Sirius bc he believed that he betrayed the Potters. So while Dumbledore may have made an unbreakable vow with Snape, I still do not believe this explains his trust for the man.
Also I am not sold on the Snape-Lily-James love triangle either. I don't think Dumbledore said "Oh okay I can forgive you bc you got a girl you liked killed and now feel bad about it." Remus and Sirius seemed to love her too. I think she was just a likeable person. I think this is stressed bc JK is stressing her power to love. I also think using Snapes treatment of Harry as proof that he loved Lily is silly. Snape is tough on hair bc he still has to pass as an agent of the Dark Lord to get info from that side. I think this love connection is as likely as Snape being Harry's father (which by the way if he is Harry's Dad then George Lucas could so bc that is so Darth Vader and Luke).
So to sum it up I think Snape is good. I think is on the Order of the Phoenix's side. I think Dumbledore not only trusted Snape but trusted him enough to ask him to kill him (wether he is dead or not). I don't think he trusted him bc he made an unbreakable vow or bc he had a crush on Lily. I am starting to think that Snape (a neutral like the Swiss) heard the prophecy and was asked by Dumbledore to become a double agent (A spy for the Alias) Snape is perfect for the job because he was a slytherin and he had some beef with James in the past. He had enough of a back story that Voldemort might buy it. Not to mention that Snape is undoubtly a talented wizard and you couldn't send any idiot in to deal with Voldemort.
This is where I get stuck though. If Dumbledore hatched this plan for Snape to be a double agent and inform Voldemort of the prophecy, wasn't Dumbledore taking a huge risk at the Potter's expense
July 8, 2007
Olive and Apple, it is not necessary to post the same question on two different boards, they have seperate topics for a reason.
July 8, 2007
Olive and Apple, dumbledore trusts a lot of people and forgives them. He admits in Half-Blood Prince that its one of his weakenesses, but I think there's more to it than we know. He wasn't taking a risk for the potter's because he, like most good wizards would've had a plan b
July 8, 2007
Dumbledore says that he has given evidence to the wizigamoth about snape turning good. This would show that he had to have already have been a death eater before helping DD.
I also belive that snape did not kill DD with the Avader Kadavra because it states in the HBP that a trickle of blood was on DD's face. In GOF the Riddles have no markings that show they were murdered except for fright.
The look of fright is also a reason to suspect that DD bwas not killed by the AK curse as he is described as looking like he is asleep.
Another thing, do you think that because Harry is loyal to DD that Fawks will still help him?
What do you think?
July 8, 2007
Could Dumbledore himself be a Phoenix ?.
July 8, 2007
shaikh, that is just wierd, i doubt he is an animagus that could turn into a pheonix, because he would be registered, adn he isnt, though it'd be funny though. Also i think it is only possible to be normal creatures, not magical, otherwise this would be pointless.
July 8, 2007